Will Knit for Food

Final Thoughts: Flora

5/23/2014

I didn't expect my post about By Hand London's Flora dress to create the reaction it did. I want to start by thanking those who commented for sharing your opinions. I do want to note, that since the publication of my original post, BHL has posted and responded to the comment I left on their Flora bodice post. Their representatives have also responded to several of your comments directly in the comment section of my first Flora post. I think it was really wonderful to start a dialogue regarding pattern companies, testers and expectations. I'm going to wrap up everything I have to say about my experience with BHL and the Flora dress in this post. And, then I'm moving on from this particular pattern.

In the comments, several people mentioned thoughts on pattern testing. I want to say that I did not, and have not ever claimed that pattern testers are paid for their endorsements. With that established, I do agree that there is an incredibly biased portrayal of patterns tested for indie sewing companies. A negative review of an indie pattern is essentially non-existent. Even if that is a conscious effort by the bloggers posting reviews to only share good experiences and stay positive, I think there should be room for sharing negative experiences and critical reviews of those same patterns. If only one side of pattern testing is revealed there is an incredibly skewed portrayal of the products being put out, and it is misleading to persons who pay and support those companies successes monetarily. When every review I read says that a pattern is wonderful, that it fits gorgeously, and that it's dreamy to sew, I buy that pattern expecting a similar experience.

If every person who has bad experiences with projects chooses to put those to the side and not talk about them, it would be a disservice to the community of sewers who look to those reviews as a basis for deciding whether or not to purchase a pattern. And, I mean that to apply to both indie and big four pattern companies.

Commenters suggested more transparency by pattern companies who recruit testers for their products. I think that's a great idea: How are testers selected? Does your company accept open submissions or do you cherry pick the bloggers you want to sew your garments? What criteria do you use to choose? Does your test pool represent the entire range of sizes you offer and a wide variety of body types? Do your testers have varying skill levels? What types of questions and feedback to you ask of your testers? Also, do you make changes from the test version and final pattern print? If so, are the testers sewing both versions to assure any kinks have been worked out? Etc...

I think most of us expect that we will have to make some modifications to a pattern in order to achieve a good fit for our bodies. I don't think anyone expects that a pattern will fit everybody. However, a pattern ought to be designed to fit somebody directly out of the envelop. Who is that girl? Do you find someone with those proportions to test the pattern? Also, when you ask people to 'test' a pattern do you ask them to sew it straight out of the envelop to show the results of your product and design on different types of bodies exactly as it is being sold? Where is the line between testing a pattern and custom sewing a garment from a pattern? If you allow modifications during the testing phase, is it actually a test of the pattern or a demonstration of an individual's ability to modify that pattern to produce a good garment?

Lots of questions. And, I'm sure others can think of more.

As I mentioned previously, this pattern runs VERY LARGE. At the time I took these photos, my waste measured 29 and 1/4 inches. This is the skirt waist cut from a straight size 8, no modifications.

Now, back to where this all started. My initial gripes have to do with the excess ease built into the pattern and the underarm creasing in the bodice that I tried hopelessly to eliminate.

Elisalex, a representative of BHL pattern company responded to my complaint, indicating:

"The Flora wrap bodice is designed to have a more casual fit and more ease than the more fitted tank bodice variation. The gentle creasing under the bust as the top wraps is normal, and very pretty in our opinion, made all the prettier when used with a fabric with a bit of drape and body. "

Here is the link to the Flora product page where the company shows two separate modeled versions of the wrap bodice dress. You can decide for yourself whether the dresses shown fit that description and explanation for the fit issues I struggled with.

Suffice to say, I did have several communications with Elisalex, a member of the BHL team, all of which were courteous and promptly responded to. However, we fail to see eye to eye regarding the representation of this pattern shown on their site vs. the above stated intended fit of this garment and the resulting garment produced from the pattern.

Ultimately, BHL maintains that they do not see issues with any of the above complaints.

I give a lot of credit to anyone willing to pursue an independent business venture. It is certainly not an easy path to forge and it requires a lot of back breaking work. But, an independent pattern company is still a commercial entity, just like any other commercial pattern company. And, as I stated previously, as a consumer, I actually expect more from your company and product if you're a small business than if you're a mass distributor.

If I was writing a negative review of a Vogue or a Simplicity pattern, most people probably wouldn't bat an eyelash. They most definitely wouldn't comment and expect me to contact Vogue or Simplicity directly before writing my criticism on my blog. It's a double standard.

As I said. These are my final thoughts on this pattern and experience. It's not my aim to deter any person from exploring By Hand London's range of patterns- I haven't tried them. I do caution, however, anyone interested in the Flora pattern to know that you are not buying a well fitted faux wrap bodice dress. If that is what you're seeking, I suggest you look elsewhere.

Also, keep talking. What you have to say is important.

These are the finished measurements printed on the pattern.

31 Comments

oonaballoona link

5/23/2014 02:20:54 am

there's a lot to respond to in this post-- and i think some of it is similar to a comment you made on my blog, which i replied to over in kalkatroona (i'm an idiot! but i like having my own planet, so yay)

but the thing that hits me most is: what we *should* expect of other's opinions? i think the question we have to ask ourselves is whether or not we believe the writer, whether it's a rave review OR a pan. for myself, if i say it was a dream to sew, it really was... but y'know, even then, even if you trust my opinion, that doesn't necessarily mean it will be a dream for you.

and lemme tell ya, where BHL is my dream date, vogue is usually my nightmare! like, cowering under the sheets wheredidigowrong nightmare! but you don't hear about that aspect of the big 4 on my blog either, because for many, vogue is perfection.

(side note-- i do love the flora as a skirt on you!!)

Michelle link

5/23/2014 04:50:41 am

I don't doubt the credibility of any of the opinions I read. Opinion is incredibly subjective.

I do, however, think it is helpful to hear from people who have differences in opinion about the same thing, especially when it comes to a product. I feel it paints a more complete picture to see both sides of the coin. I don't think one view is necessarily more correct than another, again, subjectivity, but, when all the available information about something leans in the same direction, it's incredibly disappointing to have a contrary experience.

With this specific project, it's frustrating to think I'm the first person who has made this dress that didn't have a wonderful time doing so. I think it's very likely there are other people, but people are less likely to put those experiences out there.

Thanks so much for weighing in. I love your blog and the projects you create.

5/24/2014 05:01:05 am

same here!

i absolutely think there's a place for good and bad experiences, especially when presented in a constructive way. i just happen to always have nothing less than a wonderful experience sewing up BHL. (my flora, size 8/12, fits like a glove at the waist.) but everyone, i think, has their pattern company-- like apples & oranges.

and with that off to a bbq! happy weekend tres belle!

Chris

5/23/2014 08:12:05 am

There is no way that finished measurement would work. A 1/4" ease? Seriously? No way. But, the green dress on the model does seem to be too tight in the underarm, so there is definitely some creasing going on there. Not attractive if you ask me.

florapie

5/23/2014 10:06:22 am

Thanks for starting this discussion-I barely sew, and I'm always shocked at the price of sewing patterns compared to knitting ones. This "play nice" attitude in reviews is what used to bug me about the Knitty Yarn Roundtable-if people didn't like a yarn, they just didn't review it, so you would never know it sucked. Thank goodness we have Ravelry and can get some more honest feedback on patterns, yarn, and needles. It would be great if there was something similar for sewing!

Rachel

5/23/2014 10:10:37 am

Hi Michelle, I know I'm probably a bit behind everyone else in making a comment, but I thought I may as well weigh in and give my penny's worth too! Thanks for posting on such an interesting subject, it really seems to have got everyone going. I completely get where your coming from with looking for more balanced views on popular patterns.

I thought, however, that I'd just pick up on a point you made about what expect from Indie pattern companies. I'm going to paraphrase from your previous post, so apologies if I get it wrong, but you suggested that what you expect from Indie patterns is a superor fitting garment. This is why you pay extra money for one. I have to disagree here, I'm not sure how any pattern company, whether it's Indie or one of the Big Four can actually make a 'perfect' fitting garment when body shapes are so completely different. I haven't tried the Flora pattern, but it looks like it must fit someone as the BHL girls have made quite a few. In my opinion, the reason that Indie pattern companies are so popular (the reason I buy them) is that they allow you to buy into a sense of community. You are able to easily interact with the company, allow them to promote you online and take inspiration from other customers who have also been promoted. It's a symbiotic relationship. Would any of the Big Four companies do that? What I'm trying to say is that for many sewists, sewing isn't just about making a perfect fitting garment, it's about sharing a sense of creativity with a community of other sewists. I love seeing all the different variations of the same pattern. I find it inspirational. Yes the patterns don't fit everyone straight from the envelope but you'd struggle to find any pattern that did. Ever.

Anyway, it's an interesting subject. I hope you don't think I'm trying to be confrontational in any way, I just like a good debate :)

5/23/2014 01:10:49 pm

Hello! Thanks for stopping in to contribute to this conversation. I don't think you're being confrontational, and I appreciate adding voices to this discussion. :-)

With regard to my expectations of indie patterns, I don't necessarily expect superior fit, as much as I expect a superior product. Fit is definitely a component of that, but other things such as customer service, drafting, instructions, packaging, etc... Come into play for me when it comes to my expectations.

With the Flora, the wrap dresses shown on the website are very fitted. That's the dress I had hoped I was sewing. It wasn't. The explanation I received from the company is that the dress isn't intended to be fitted, rather looser fitting and more casual. A little bit of false advertising, in my opinion. Also, a huge bummer, since I spent a lot of my limited sewing time trying to achieve the fit I saw on the product page.

I totally agree that a lot of sewists are sewing certain patterns for the sake of participating in the community. But, can we only be friends if we all like the same things and agree all the time?

francesca

6/3/2014 08:12:23 pm

Harrumph. Sense of community does not part a lot of people from their cash in these cash-strapped times. I do expect great drafting from indies. Not perfectly fitted, as bodies are unique, but great drafting. And why on earth shouldn't I?! I buy from certain indies because they either do specific things (like Colette and bluegingerdoll draft for C and D cups respectively) or because they produce designs that fit my aesthetic (vintage inspired, whatever). I have been cringing at the sight of a couple of new pattern makers on the web who don't look like they ever studied pattern drafting - and who are already selling, thanks to the flocking that sometimes happens. I don't hesitate to ask indies questions about their patterns before I try them out, and won't buy from someone who doesn't respond adequately. So far, I've only had one non-response (BHL, in fact, as I said in my other comment on your first Flora post) and one very negative response to a serendipity studio crit re drafting. BHL seem to have the same response as SS - "we are never wrong" - except that they reply politely.... BFD.

Jo link

5/23/2014 01:58:43 pm

Just wanted to say thanks for your honesty! It's refreshing and valuable :) (fwiw I also sewed a bhl design which turned out massive in the waist despite what was written on the envelope)

Valerie Lebedevas link

5/23/2014 06:17:00 pm

I do think it is fair to say in a review 'I think there are problems with the drafting/sizing of this pattern' if that is the case and to present your issues fairly while also presenting the good points. That is called a balanced review. I am going through a variety of modifications to an Indie pattern at the moment AND it's a pattern that has (so far) not had a word said against it that I know of.
I do agree with you that Inide companies use pattern testers that echo the body type of their patterns, either that or they just use someone model-like.

puu link

5/28/2014 03:41:27 am

i'm thoroughly enjoying your posts on this subject. particularly since this is something i discuss with the sewing ladies i know often - in fact, nearly always - when we get together.

firstly, i think pattern testers should be paid. perhaps at the outset of the indie ventures, this would not have been so, but recently the indie companies have been - dare i say it? - taking advantage of bloggers they view to be appropriate or popular WRT their product, and taking up a lot of these ladies' time, effort and money. several of the women i spoke to were going to stop pattern testing all together, or start charging. BHL in particular got some interesting comments on this front.

secondly, i fully support indie patterns. every time one of these companies forms it is good for all of us - many of these women are us - but that does not mean we do not take them seriously as a business, and as such, be open to providing constructive criticism. because we want them to succeed! it's not because we don't support them - the critique is an important part of that support. how else can a company perform to the standards we hope for if we do not share those standards? how can they improve and/or grow if the sewing community - and for many of these indies, the blogs and/or word of mouth are their sole vessels for advertising - does not honestly express an opinion?

which leads me to say, more voices, more opinions, more versions of the dress are all good things - even if not all of the reactions are positive. as oona says, accurately, one person's dream date is another person's nightmare. we can only find the "dream date" for us if we can make informed decisions.

5/28/2014 07:11:22 am

I was talking with my husband on the topic of pattern testers, and he said much the same! I should probably note that he is a professional tester engineer in R&D, and while his industry is manufacturing, not sewing patterns, he was shocked and confused by the way we as a sewing community have come to define and view 'testing' a product.

It would absolutely be fair to pay testers. What we call testing, is in many ways, more of a PR campaign than it is product development in comparison to other industries.

6/3/2014 08:01:17 pm

I'm a new reader and just posted on the first (great, honest) flora post. Have to say that I totally agree with this. I remember a couple of indie companies sent fabric to their testers - I don't think this is standard, but I think it should be the absolute minimum!

Lisa

6/4/2014 08:22:20 pm

Haha, my boyfriend, a web developer, said exactly the same. Testing is completely different from reviewing and they should be separated.

Lisette link

5/28/2014 02:55:57 pm

I've really enjoyed both these posts and the discussion that has finally come out from them. As Puu said, we end up talking about this a LOT in person.
I think my beef has been that the "pattern testers" posts have ended up portraying them less as testers and more like groupies for a pattern company. When a company chooses the most popular bloggers to test their patterns over and over again, rather than bloggers in a range of sizes, ages and body types or even offering an open testing call, it automatically makes me question what is more important to them: quality or sales. If you're not choosing those bloggers for the increase in sales they're obviously going to give you, why are you choosing them and ONLY them? Choose some well known bloggers and some with less blog hits. And just to be clear, I'm certainly not saying they don't have the sewing skills to accurately test or that they're writing biased reviews. The companies have a right to operate their businesses how they see fit. But the way most of the indie companies do pattern testing is a huge turn off for me as a potential customer.

Alice link

5/30/2014 03:18:16 am

It's really great to see some honest and open opinions about indie patterns though I'm sorry to hear that you had such a touch time with it. I, too, either rightly or wrongly, expect more from indie patterns, especially based on how much they cost, and more often than not, all the raving reviews on the blogsphere. I think the sewing community is almost too supportive...and i mean that in the nicest possible way. with indie companies where the people behind them are more visible, I feel that people struggle to voice a negative opinion. I fully agree with you that there should be room for constructive criticism, and it was very refreshing to read your well written posts.

Sue

6/3/2014 05:49:53 am

People are saying that pattern testers are not paid. From my understanding, they are not. But in the case of the BHL flora dress everyone of the bloggers I saw "revealing" the dress (and here I am assuming they were also the testers ?) also had a "care package" included, which included enough fabric to make the dress as well as some other lovely gifts. Yes, these were declared, but surely this would make you feel obligated to only say nice things about the pattern? At the end of the day, indie designers have the same goal at the big 4: sell their patterns and make the bucks. And there is nothing wrong with that. But if this review had been posted about the big 4 everyone would have cheered and as this related to an indie designer it's opened a whole can of worms.

Suzanne

6/3/2014 09:16:41 am

Just saw these posts. I couldn’t agree more. I’m a beginning intermediate sewist. And so when a indie pattern doesn’t fit (even after making basic alterations) I just always assume its me and I’m embarassed that I couldn’t make it work. Yes, I know it still very well might be me, but if people wrote more negative reviews I’d be able to figure out if it was!

Andrea link

6/3/2014 11:41:18 pm

Hello. I'm new to your blog and was directed this way by Cahsmerette's post. :)

I really appreciate what you've written, both the original post and this one. I've noticed the same thing. I had a horrible experience recently with a Built By Wendy dress pattern--one from her books, not Simplicity. Eventually I made it work, but only after extensive modifications on my part on both the muslin and the final. And it was only on the book reviews on GoodReads that I saw that this particular issue was common for people sewing up this pattern. Even on patternreviews.com, I saw almost entirely positive reviews.

Is it possibly self-consciousness? Do people see all these other positive reviews, assume it must be them if they can't get it to work, and so only say positive things about it in turn? Because I have to tell you that when I posted a negative review on my own site I felt like I was coating my foot with orange juice and sticking it in a wasp's nest. Mind you, no one really reads it and BBW isn't one of the Cool New Indies anymore, so it was fine, but still.

I haven't bought any BHL, though I've thought about it many times what with all of the sewing bloggers who make up their clothes and seem to love them. Nothing wrong with what I can see of them, they just don't fit my single-working-mom lifestyle. Which is fine, we're not all the same and don't all value the same things, but I have definitely felt that pressure even from the periphery--"everyone else loves BHL, maybe I should give them a try."

I'm so glad the Indie companies are out there. I'm not above the Big 4, far from it--I love their regular sales and shop them pretty obsessively. But the indies add a different aesthetic and value that I really appreciate as well, plus the community an earlier commenter mentioned, and I'm glad they're out there doing their thing, even when it isn't "me." But I have definitely noticed this double standard when it comes to reviews of Big 4 patterns vs. Indies (eg., can anyone imagine Lladybird's semi-regular Vogue-bashing posts being welcomed if they were targeted instead at, say, Colette or Sewaholic?). It's only natural; we think of the indies as people we are friends with, I think, thanks to blogging and instagram and facebook etc. But yes, it does muddy up the waters considerably when it comes to reviews of patterns and the expectations we bring to them.

6/4/2014 08:17:03 pm

Hey Michelle,

First of all, I think you managed to find the right tone in your posts, forming your opinions is a constructive way. It's not easy when you are speaking from frustration and disappointment!

I do agree that the 'I am your friend so I like your pattern' phenomenon might be making the reviewers/testers more biased towards the pattern. But I think there is another issue on the other side: A lot of blogs are not only about posting things they make, but also posting pretty things. I for one tend not to post about something if I don't like it. I smooth out the curves and wrinkles and probably won't photograph after a day of wearing the garment. It would be very helpful if bloggers were also more inclined/encouraged to post their fails and not only the successes. This would lead to more balanced reviews imo. By balanced I mean posts in which the fit alterations are clearly stated - whether or not you feel that after 3 alterations the dress is still a succes is different for anyone.

I do think the fit expectations might be a bit too high. I think an Indie pattern has the same chance to fit you straight out of the envelope as any other patten. Although Indie pattern designers in general give much more attention to detail to all aspects of a pattern, everybody has to work with a given set of measurements, and it is obvious that they will always only fit a certain group of women. And that group is different for every company.

As an aspiring pattern designer I really hope people will write honest reviews about my patterns, and will rather give me constructive criticism than just positive feedback. I do wonder if it's not in the nature of people and the way people communicate in the sewing community to be nice or not say anything. I truly hope I can create a space where people will feel free to say what they think, and that I will be able to grow because of it.

Sonia link

6/5/2014 09:34:45 am

Hi Michelle,

I came late to this discussion from Closet Case Files, and the ongoing debate about the place of pattern testing in general. As one of the people who has a rather low-traffic blog, I have often felt left out of the clique of pattern testers. On the other hand, I've met Lizzy (of sewbusylizzy in Australia) and heard the frustrations that come with maintaining a highly visited blog, and it sounds very exhausting to balance some of the expectations that come along with that. I think she does a wonderful job, but I can't speak for everyone.

From when I began blogging, I thought the entire point was to show everything as it was, as grumpily as necessary. I thought of blogging as a documentable journey from total sewing novice, to competent wardrobe genius. (Not there yet, hah!!) I've actually blogged every single thing I have made since I started sewing last year, including the fails and the repeats. And until recently, I thought everyone else was doing that too. Maybe I'm an eternal pessimist, but why bother having a blog if you only comment on what's great? No two people have identical bodies, and I at least try in my blog to comment on what worked for me and why, or suggest body shapes that might have greater success when I think patterns look terrible on me. I'm glad to see that some other people are dedicated to doing the same thing.

Finally, interestingly - one of my Anna dresses got the greatest interest of anything on my blog, and I thought it looked terrible on me. It was way too tight. Do sewists have low expectations for ourselves?

Francesca

6/5/2014 05:00:03 pm

Sonia, your blog sounds just right to me!

Jessica link

6/5/2014 08:20:26 pm

Thank you for your honest review. I too worry that the sewing community is afraid of giving bad reviews to indie designers. I sew a lot from the big 4 companies, and find few issues, but I'm not hesitant to post issues from any company. Thank you!

The nerdy seamstress link

6/6/2014 08:19:26 am

I read this post and your first post. I thought nothing wrong of you writing your fit review of the pattern. Yea, there aren't enough of it. I like to write the fit reviews for my clothes too. I am highly critical of fit. Those wrinkles are weird. I didn't examine it on others. I made a couple of muslins and the bodice was a bit off for me. I bummed because i love a good wrap dress. The wrinkles were there that I didn't like and I tried to fix it. I just gave up. Hoping I'd come back to it, I didn't. I do like their other patterns though.

6/6/2014 08:23:01 am

The only reason I didn't blog about it is because I hoped to work on it again and write my experience. I don't know if I will finish it. If I don't, will I blog about it? Probably not because I don't normally blog about my ufos

Sara link

6/17/2014 03:19:15 pm

Late to the party on this...but I ordered a Flora about a week ago and I'm honestly really nervous that I just paid $34 to spend 2 weeks fiddling with fit. Yeesh. At least when I buy a big 4 pattern it's less damaging to my wallet if I'm spending 2 weeks and endless muslins tweaking the fit!

[I should point out that I always muslin...I don't buy any pattern (indie or otherwise) thinking it'll fit me straight out of the envelope as they never, ever do! (I also kind of enjoy the fitting process, it's like a puzzle and my brain thrives on finding the solution.) ;)]

Thank you for your series of posts regarding your experience!

Amanda

7/7/2014 06:00:46 am

I just discovered your blog when looking at other peoples versions of the BHL flora dress as I'm about to make one. So glad to have stumbled across such a thought provoking conversation! I love seeing other peoples interpretations of all the great indie patterns that are out there but hadn't really stopped to consider how well they always seem to turn out and that people aren't sharing their makes that don't work out (which is perfectly understandable). I completely understand why someone wouldn't want to blog about something they may consider to be a failure but by doing so it perhaps makes us as readers think that our own skills must be lacking if our makes aren't perfect every time. While I like to support indie pattern designers and tend to buy from them rather than the big 4 I agree that a more varied test/ review base of bloggers who give completely honest feedback would benefit everyone in the long run - constructive criticism can only help an indie pattern company develop for the better.
So glad I discovered your blog and will definitely continue to read it!

tigergirl link

7/28/2014 02:41:34 pm

I completely agree with you and boy, is it refreshing to find out that someone didn't drink the koolaid.
Yes, it's unreasonable to expect a great fit right out of the envelope. However, it's not unreasonable to expect the correct use of a tape measure or portrayal of finished appearance. These two things are my bug bears with the Big4, so why would I pay (substantially) more to still have those problems?
Funnily enough, all of the rave reviews of indie patterns is one of the main things that turned me off buying them - it just felt like everyone was jumping on the band wagon to fit in with the cool kids and my cynical side called bs.
Maybe part of it can be attributed to an article I was reading about a month or so ago that basically stated that up to 80% of people were lying about their lives on social media, to make themselves seem the perfect parent, more successful, richer, social high flyers etc.

Haylee Atkinson link

8/13/2014 06:07:00 am

You know what I really commend you for writing this post. It needs to be said because I definitely feel like there is a lack of authenticity in the sewing blogosphere with this exact thing and hopefully this will be the beginnings of change with that. I haven't made the flora skirt personally so I don't have much to say about that but like I said, I'm glad you stepped forward with your true opinions and didn't shy away for fear of offending anyone.
I also commend By Hand London for responding, other companies may have just avoided it or pretended like they were too busy to care so at least we know By Hand London has their customer's best interest at heart. I think that says a lot about a company!

Sarah Tavakoli link

8/28/2024 12:11:46 am

Great post! Thanks for sharing this with us.

8/28/2024 01:46:42 am

Very late to the party here. I tried two patterns from them back in the day, both of which were extremely popular. Not impressed with the drafting at all. The panels on the skirt ended in a straight hem line - no curves, even though the panels were all flared - and their seams didn't match. Plus, there were so many spelling and grammatical mistakes. That puts me off, I feel like there's less care overall.... I mean, spelling check is so easy!

Tres bien ensemble

Final Thoughts: Flora

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